How does the RAF balance operations around the clock?
In this week’s InsideAIR episode, Air-Vice Marshal Steve Kilvington, Air Officer Commanding 11 Group explains how critical decisions are made to support operations at home and abroad.
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InsideAir Podcast Episode 148 Transcript
Please note that this transcript is automatically generated, and may have some errors. The original audio is the authoritative wording.
Narrator: Standby for broadcast. Standby for broadcast. You're listening to Inside Air, a behind the wire view of the Royal Air Force, its people, technology and operations.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: I'm Squadron Leader Peter Lisney, and in this episode, we're off to Headquarters Air Command to hear from AOC 11 Group
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Our ability to fight from the home base, our ability to execute operations from the UK in support of NATO operations is gonna be a fundamental part of what we're doing in the future. If we're not using information operations to shape Russian thinking or other adversaries' thinking, then we are, then we're really effectively just doing some stuff that people may or may not interpret in the way that we want them to.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Are we at war?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Okay. I laugh, I laugh. That's a good, that's a good question
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Also, in this episode, we'll reheat a few stories just in case you missed them, and we'll be finding out who is under the hat this week.
AS1 Ben Russel: Hardest part of your job?
Under the Hat: Traveling all around the world and getting paid for it and not gloating about it to everyone I see.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Find out who is under the hat at the end of this episode. Now, they're the RAF's operational hub. They make critical decisions at pace, and they balance global commitments with air defence of the UK. They are 11 Group.
Air Vice Marshal Steve Kilvington, Air Officer Commanding 11 Group, welcome back to Inside Air.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Great to be here. Good to see you again, Peter.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Really good to see you. Yes, last time we spoke it was in Belgium, wasn't it? At SHAPE.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: It was, yeah, in SHAPE in in Mons, in Belgium, in Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe three or so years ago, I think.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: It was. It was three years ago. So [00:02:00] we'll come back to NATO, but I want to ask you a question. First question: Are we at war?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Okay. I la- I laugh. That's a good, that's a good question. I think we're at-- I think we're in conflict in some shape. And I think, and perhaps we'll unpack this a bit more as we go, but I think we-- the idea that we are at peace is something that is being challenged on a day-to-day basis, and we see that through gray zone activity from Russia, challenges to our national infrastructure, cyber attacks from from other parts of the world.
We're certainly not in a position where all is well. And so whether we're at war or at conflict in the traditional sense, I think that would be very difficult to argue that we are. But I think we can definitely argue that we are in competition and that competition is increasingly challenging our ability to provide security and resilience for the UK and the homeland.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Okay. Yeah. But, so war is actually a legal term, isn't it? So-- And sometimes with warfare or conflict you look back and you realize the point that you were at war because there's that gray zone activity.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah. And of course we're-- I think there is a tendency for us to think about war being a matter of state on state and actually the conflicts that we find ourselves in increasingly are are less specific than that, are less clear-cut than that.
And so actually much of what we're doing is about trying to drive within the Air Force both a sense of being ready to deliver against whatever we are required to do, be that comp-competing in competition or be that managing activity in crisis or in the worst case, finding ourselves in a full-scale conflict, a full-scale war but at the same time being resilient enough to be able to respond to whatever's being thrown at us at the time.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Okay. So we're something that is said by the chief is we're the first [00:04:00] responders and as an air force. What does that mean to 11 Group?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: I feel enormously privileged to be commanding Eleven Group, particularly right now and particularly in the context of both preparing ourselves to be able to deal with whatever's coming around the corner to the threats to the homeland, to the Euro-Atlantic, to our contribution to NATO. But actually more particularly in the last six months or so to have been at the helm when we've been very heavily involved in the Middle East again. And so I think as I look back on the last six months of where we found ourselves I'm enormously proud of what the Air Force has done to be that first responder, to get people out of the door, capabilities out of the door quickly, efficiently and professionally, and to have delivered such a meaningful contribution to to operations in the Middle East, but more importantly to protecting our Middle Eastern partners and allies.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So I think one of the things that we want to understand today is [00:05:00] the purpose, the role of 11 Group. And if I may ask for you to give credit to your colleagues in the other groups and sell me them before you sell us 11 Group.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So I can really easily, and it-- and I'd say that if I were to only mention those groups, I would be doing much of the rest of the Air Force a, a, a degree of disservice.
But my colleagues in one group and my, my my equivalent in one group are absolutely focused on force generation of air power. So the air assets that we send on operations the training that's required to get those people to high levels of competence, high levels of skill and the readiness that's required to execute operations, and the pace and scale at which they got those forces out of the door to support the Middle East was enormously impressive.
Equally enabled by both forces across two groups the, the BM force, the Battle Space Management force in particular, deploying numbers of people who are at no level of readiness out of the door within a day or two to go and deliver really important [00:06:00] capabilities and support to our Middle Eastern partners.
But more broadly, all of the enabling capabilities that sit underneath two groups, so be that force protection the Royal Air Force Regiment have done an incredible job with their surface-to-air capabilities. But more, more importantly, or as importantly, some of the other capabilities and resilience and readiness and sustainment that, that sits under that group has been incredibly impressive.
And of course, none of that happens without the other arms of the Air Force, so Director Support Director Supports organisation the people pillar Space Force as a partner force here not part of the Air Force, but again, partner force here at High Wycombe. And all of the other enabling parts of the organisation that get us out of the door and sustain us forward have been just as much a fundamental part of that.
And move back to 22 Group, of course, none of this is delivered without the enormous efforts that 22 Group go to, to train our people to that level of-- to the point where they're able to come and contribute to forces and operations and and our broader activities. So [00:07:00] it-- it really is a whole of Air Force effort, and here at High Wycombe, equally, as I say, supported by the Space Force. It would be easy to single out 11 Group as being the, the operational headquarters who go forward and execute the operations but we take the enormous capability that everybody else provides.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Okay. Thank you. I think we've all seen a cultural shift in the last few years, which is down to, recent leaders It feels more joined up. It feels that we're working together, not against each other. Is that fair?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah that's really fair. A- and having been away from the Air Force for a few years over in NATO, that was the sense I came back with, was one of a collegiate approach, collaboration across the pillars.
Just everybody really focused on that single effort, being agile, being integrated, being ready to fly and fight and being, more importantly, working together to get that effect. It absolutely feels more joined up than it ever has, and I can say that from my two-star [00:08:00] colleagues down that's absolutely the sense that I've arrived into and it's an incredible place to work right now.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: You'd probably expect that I did this. I listened to our chat a couple of years ago before I came to have a chat today. And one of the things that you mentioned last time is in your career because you were on F-3 as a navigator, started off, and you saw the picture of the squadron and then you became a flight commander and your view, your world view - changed. And then later on you became a squadron boss, and then your worldview changes and what you explained is when you went to NATO, oh my gosh, it really opened your eyes. This, this, this development. So you s- you spent three years at SHAPE as the national military representative. It's a joint post, so you the previous one was army, so I'm guessing current is Royal Navy.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yep.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: And you've come back here. W- what have you brought [00:09:00] back from SHAPE into Air Command, into 11 Group? Those lessons learned, personal lessons learned, w- how is that shaping what you do today in 11 Group?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: There's a couple of things there.
The first is that as one of my roles as Air Officer Commanding 11 Group is I'm Director of Operations for the Royal Air Force. And what that means is that I'm responsible for driving the operational thinking across the Air Force. And I took over from Air Vice Marshal Tom Burke who did an amazing job in this role, and set the ball rolling with what the Air Force is calling transition to conflict.
So that preparation for how we get ready to fight by, with, and through NATO. So I inherited an awesome piece of work that was ongoing and is still ongoing today. What I think I brought back with me was both a sense of what that needed to dock into, but also a sense of where we could [00:10:00] do more or do differently.
And it's not necessarily more as in volume, but more in terms of being more integrated, more connected, thinking about how we interoperate more effectively with allies and partners. And a lot of that work was already in train, but I have a sense of the detail and the connections, and importantly, the relationships with allies and partners that, that allows me to both have a more holistic view, I think, than, than I would have done previously, but also to be able to unlock some of those challenges by having a pretty good network out there, or at least being able to point people in the right direction.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Yeah. So and that network must be invaluable given the situation we're in today.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: It is. It is. And I laugh because already I've had a couple of conversations, phone conversations with former colleagues who were my counterparts in SHAPE Who've unlocked things for me just by me having rung them and them having the right connections within their own military.
It, that, that network is incredible actually. And we, and that in other parts of defence. You, your network, you go through staff college with the network you build from when you worked in permanent joint headquarters or whatever. But it's, yeah, it's brilliant to be able to do that at an international level.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Yeah. And I guess, yeah, that's the thing is, as a nation today we're very proud of our military But there isn't the same sense of pride when it comes to NATO. But without NATO w- we wouldn't necessarily have our nation.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So I feel like we're turning the corner there, actually. I think I'm certain, in fact, that both that both the military and the nation to a degree are turning the corner on what we think NA- the importance of NATO is.
And there's obviously some interesting discourse in and around the social media and the news about NATO and the centricity of NATO in the North Atlantic. But we can be [00:12:00] in no doubt that NATO is the centre of the strategic defence review. The amount of GDP that we're spending on our military capabilities, both as the UK as we grow that number a- and across our allies and partners in Europe, is increasing significantly.
The NATO plans that you and I talked about a couple of years ago are significantly more mature. There's a load of detail in there. There's new headquarters standing up. The integration between allies and those headquarters is much improved. We're thinking about NATO as the cornerstone of our planning.
We have influence and equity across the alliance in some really key posts. The UK has just taken over the command of Joint Force Command Norfolk in the US, which commands the whole joint operating area northwest, so the whole area that the UK exists in. So I think NATO's becoming much more central in the way that we think and plan, much more part of our conversation, much more in people's brains, psyche and understanding. So I'm really confident we're turning the corner and that we're definitely on a very much more positive trajectory.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Let's talk about air power in contested environments. And what we'd really like to understand is how the RAF adapts to all these evolving threats and drone warfare. And we see it on the news as unidentified drones, some carrying weapons on mainland Europe. And how do we respond as an Air Force driven by Eleven Group to these changing threats?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: That, that is ultimately the question that we need to work our way through over the next few years so as the UK Air and Missile defence Commander again, another part of my role as AOC 11, we're absolutely focused on developing an integrated air and missile defence plan that both equips us to be able [00:14:00] to defend the homeland tonight, but also to defend the homeland and the alliance against the threats of tomorrow.
And so all of those threats that you're talking about, whether it is small uncrewed aerial systems or hypersonics or ballistic missiles or air-launched cruise missiles, need to be a part of our defensive action for the future. And that technology is moving so quickly, and we've seen it move so quickly in Ukraine, that actually the challenge is less about thinking about what the current threat is, but more about developing a system that allows us to adapt quickly enough to the technology of tomorrow and the technology for the day after tomorrow.
Because if we don't-- if we configure ourselves with super exquisite, really highly capable, expensive systems that can deal with one particular threat, but then the threat evolves, and we've seen it happen in Ukraine again over the last few years, the threat evolves quickly overnight, and we don't have the ability to respond to that, then we're not gonna be able to do our job properly. So the challenge is not so much what we're seeing right now, but the ability to deal with what we're seeing right now and build a system of systems that allow us to deal with deal with the threat of the future. So control of the air remains absolutely paramount. It's the centre of the Air Force's business.
It has been since Eleven Group was first formed. It has been since the Battle of Britain where Eleven Group won its honor. A-And it will continue to be in the future. And we have to be, we have to be on top of our game there. That's absolutely our core business and whether that's national quick reaction alert responding to Russian long-range aviation, or whether it's a more complex system of integrated air and missile defence dealing with a future threat in crisis and conflict. It's important that we're able to deal with that threat now and tomorrow.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: It's a huge challenge. Are we on top of it?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Absolutely, we are. We absolutely are. The Strategic defence Review was crystal clear about the need for an integra- a future integrated air and missile defence. [00:16:00] We are driving down the detail on the plan for today's capability.
We're a fundamental part of the development for tomorrow's capability. We're engaging with allies and partners. This is not just about the UK. This is not about putting a bubble around the UK. This is about what the UK's contribution is both to protecting ourselves, but also to protecting our allies and how we interlock those jigsaw pieces across the UK, the and the airspace and the and the land space around us. So yeah, absolutely we are and connected where we need to be to get after the right answers.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Can we talk a little bit about information operations or the the cognitive domain because that sits under your area of responsibility. And, we're in catch up, aren't we, as a nation?
How much are we looking to the East with, to our allies and colleagues in Ukraine for how to respond, how to deal with that?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So yes, information operations [00:17:00] sits we have an information operations element within the group, relatively small at the moment but growing in terms of capability and numbers of people.
One of the, one of the things that struck me in my previous job in NATO was the degree to which the alliance was starting to think about information operations as a critical effect and shaping activity around information operations rather than the other way around. And if we consider that deterrence is the most important thing that we do today, how do we convince Russia that or whatever the threats we're talking about, but in the context of the European theater, how do we convince Russia that today's not the day to attack, nor is tomorrow and nor is the day after?
We have to do that by demonstrating our abilities and demonstrating that Russia cannot win. But importantly, if we are not communicating that properly, if we are not using information operations to shape Russian thinking or other adversaries thinking, then we are really effectively [00:18:00] just doing some stuff that people may or may not interpret in the way that we want them to.
So NATO was really, is getting really good at that. I we are, we've been doing that in different forms across defence for a while, but I think as the Air Force is starting to think about how we provide that effect from an air perspective that's relatively new work, I think.
And there's definitely some more for us to do.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So the the balance that could be of great interest is the action driving the message or is the message driving the action? Where's that balance now?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So it has to be both. It has, it absolutely has to be both. We need to be able to- Deliver activity that conveys a message. So if the strategic message is to convince Russia of the quality of our air defence capabilities, for example then we should build activity around that in order to convey that message. But equally, there'll be other stuff that we need to do that's critical training or critical integration work or critical capability development that we should communicate afterwards. So it has to be the balance of the two, but it's working out who your target audience is, what message you're trying to convey to them, and therefore, the most effective means of doing that is. And if that is activity driving that, then fine, but equally if that needs to drive activity, then that, that's okay too.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Okay. And just to wrap up this a little bit we-- Those of us currently serving or former our veterans that listen to this will be familiar with A one to nine, J one to nine, so air or joint. But have we had a spinal tap moment- Yeah ... and we now go up to 10?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: We do. We now go up to 10. So information operations is A10. So we now talk about one to 10. And and I will happily call anybody out when they revert to one to nine as we regularly do in meetings. Yeah, absolutely, A10, information operations.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So it's here to stay.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yep.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: It's NATO doctrine.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yep.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Yeah.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington:Use it is, and we've got a big part to play.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So just looking back career-wise, Going back 10, 12 years, you were the boss of an E-3D Sentry Squadron.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yep.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So ISTAR, I'll get you to explain what ISTAR is in a moment. How has the role of data and ISR changed over the last 10 years. How would you say that's w- where have the innovations been in the last 10 years in ISR and ISTAR? Start off by explaining what that is.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So ISTAR intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance. The acronym that describes all of those activities. And you're right, I was the boss of the UK E-3 airborne warning and control system squadron, so flying the the Boeing 70- the modified 707 with a big dish on the top, or the SMARTIE as my kids used to call it.
And just part of a broader ISTAR force which I obviously had quite a lot to do with when I was station commander at Waddington. So that, that force is about generating intelligence surveillance, reconnaissance in order to prime the pumps. We cannot execute any form of operational activity without the information that we need that, that shapes our planning, that shapes our delivery of operations, shapes our sustainment logistics, everything across A1 to 10.
So that role has become increasingly important in recent years as we've started to see more and more exquisite collect capabilities from both sides from us and from our adversaries. And that has generated, as we're getting much more detail and much more persistence and much more capability, that has generated, that is generating vast amounts of data.
And the clear challenge now is how we turn that data into actionable insights rather than just huge, terabytes and terabytes of data. And if we get that right, then we'll generate information superiority, and what that means is that we will have a decision advantage over the adversary. So it's how do we deliver that capability?
How do we build the technology at pace that allows us to take that information, processes it to the greatest degree as we can with by automation and using artificial intelligence and other such capabilities to give pictures to commanders at the relevant level to give us the trust that we can make decisions based on that information that it's giving us.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So just to help us understand that I know you're a Forest fan.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: I'm not sure where this is going, but okay.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Look, let's just look at it. The, the Premier League hasn't started yet, which means you're equal top. Fair?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yep. Yeah.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Didn't finish last season that way. How would, on a football field, information can you draw any similes to a football manager and the information that they might gather to [00:23:00] help them execute and win?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: I'm not privy to the amount of data that, that you can pull from the piece of kit that a footballer runs around a pitch with, but it's... I'm sure that they are using that data to make decisions on fatigue and readiness and speed and pace and performance and in the same way that, you know, perhaps something I think is a little more akin to what we do is Formula 1 teams who are looking at huge amounts of data on the car and the driver to make decisions in the moment about where they need to make a different decision.
Same for the financial markets. There are, there are numerous other parts of different industries who are trying to exploit data really quickly. And what we can't do is have a situation where we've got huge amounts of data that takes us weeks and weeks to process from which we've got three or four actionable items because that data will be way out of date by that point.
So we've got to be able to process right on the edge of the decision-making boundary such that we can make those decisions [00:24:00] quickly. And that inevitably means that we're going to have to pass some of that off to systems to do that work for us, but keep a human on the loop to make the decisions at the point where they need to be made.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Do you quite like AI. We were having a chat earlier and,
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: I do ...
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: you must tell us about your little experiment on Outlook.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So I do AI and I use it carefully, but I often use it to red team something that I'm working through or to provide some prompts that I might not have thought about or to summarize something that's really complex.
And I'm trying to push the boundaries and trying to understand what else it might offer me. And I thought before we came here, actually I wonder if Copilot were to look through my outbox from the last year, what it would take as being my three principles of command. So I asked it and it said that my three principles of command were to think critically and challenge assumptions to prioritize the mission first but people always and to empower through intent and judgment, [00:25:00] which sounds like a lovely bit of 360 feedback and I'll take that, and I'll probably put that into my annual report, feedback in- into the three star. But actually it, it-- I found it interesting not because it felt positive in nature because I'm sure, I'm pretty sure AI doesn't do negative very well anyway. But but because it felt relatively true and it felt like it had summarized an awful lot of data quite quickly to do that and it was literally 20 seconds.
So I think there's a lot of utility in it and if we use it properly we can gain some really powerful capabilities as a consequence.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: And for the benefit of those that are listening might be thinking, "Why is a military commander using AI on a military laptop?" Now, could you just explain the precautions that are in place for Copilot and whatnot?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah. So the Co- the Copilot's not not doing web search. It's using a large l- large language model. My, my understanding of the, the digital complexity of this, this is definitely not my strong area. But we have a it's a relatively closed system on our OS.
It's certainly not, it's certainly not exposing a load of [00:26:00] sensitive information. We don't use it on secret. There's-- So there's very much some limitations in place and it's abso- I'm absolutely not throwing out all of my data into the ether.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Yes. Sandbox.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Otherwise I definitely wouldn't be using it.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Yeah. Cool. Just thought we'd better put that out there. I think it's interesting that it came up with people because, let's face it, over the years we-- sometimes we hear commanders, say, "People first," "It's all about the people." And, the actions don't always follow the words.
So you've, you've-- AI thinks you're up there with people. Let's just have a think about that. It's a really high tempo environment in 11 Group. How do you look after your teams? How do you look after the people and keep them motivated, keep them engaged, and keep them in the Air Force?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So I'll note that AI said mission first, people always rather than people first, mission always, which is interesting. So I might have, might need to check myself. But look, it- [00:27:00] One of, one of the things, one of the great things about 11 Group is that we are right at the front of what the Air Force is doing operationally, and so it's exciting, it's interesting.
Everybody in the group, and I think, I genuinely mean everybody in the group, gets a real kick out of what we do. And I see enormously passionate people doing incredible work. The, the rate of effort that the group and the people we worked with delivered in those first few months of Middle Eastern operations after the US and Israel bombed Iran was genuinely humbling, and I don't say that tritely, I genuinely mean that.
It was absolutely incredible. So we've got amazing people with a real war-fighting mindset. And that exists outside of the group but from my experience within 11 Group that's the people we've got. So motivating people's not difficult. Running them hot for a period of time is my biggest worry, is we used to send people on operations for a number of months where the only thing they had to worry about was whether [00:28:00] they'd cleaned their teeth and tied their shoelaces and then their job.
We're now increasingly delivering operations from the home plate, from the UK, where people have got a number of other things that they need to worry about, so partners, families, bills, groceries, and all of that, and all of that additional pressure that they have. So my real worry is always about how do we manage tempo?
Where do we take a knee when we can? What can we cut away that's not essential activity? Where can we delay something till later? Where can we pass something off to somebody else? And whether it's AI allowing us to work through things more quickly, whether it's about giving people the time and space, whether it's about, Finding a different way to do things, whether it's about communicating more effectively so that we don't have to do as much work to process the information.
There's a whole array of things there that I make my business to try and improve for folk. And then if-- I think if we get that right and we manage that op pressure wherever we can, and [00:29:00] we give people time and space to do some training and some thinking and to develop themselves, then actually it to some degree takes care of itself.
But there will always be people who are under more pressure. There will always be people who are struggling, and there will always be people who need a bit more time or space or something else. And we've gotta find those people and give them the help that they need or those parts of the organisation and give that, that part of the organisation the help that it needs.
And that never goes away. It's never better. We'll never fix it, and we've just gotta be mindful of that, I think.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: I mean, sometimes things like sport and AT, that, that can be the litmus test of thrashing people
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yep.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Denying AT. How's that going? If I were to line up 50 people from 11 Group and said, "Are you getting away on AT?" "Are those being approved?" What would they say?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: That's a good question. So I certainly know that there are a lot of people who'd like to do more. There were 10 people who I was talking to yesterday went off and played paddle for a couple of hours yesterday. So it does [00:30:00] happen, but it happens in pockets.
We've genuinely, this evening, we've got a 11 Group barbecue across at the All Ranks Bar this evening. So we've got barbecue, couple of beers, family event, bringing people along. So there's outlets. I think in these difficult times, both financially and operationally, it's always going to be difficult to get enough of that.
But we'd we try to provide people with the time and space to go and do that, and whether it's ski champs or going off to be to do football for the Air Force or at a local level, or buying people time to go and do force development trips there's always opportunities, and we just need to keep...
Do you know what I mean? A lot of times we need to force people to find the time to do it because they're so busy and engaged in what they're doing that actually-
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: And conscientious of their job.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Not wanting to let their colleagues down.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah. Exactly that. Understood.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Can we talk about risk management and how that has evolved over the time that you first took the backseat of a Tornado F3 right through to where you sit today [00:31:00] and, the appetite, no, attitude to risk and h- w- maybe give us some examples of what that looks like today.
So evolution over the last 25 years and what are we looking at today?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So I think there's a tendency when we talk about risk to think about duty holding as being the only pillar that we're really interested in. So how are we managing risk to life? And that if we're looking at risk to life, then the duty holding construct that came-- that fell out of the Hadding Cave review of the Nimrod disaster has been a, has been an incredible journey, I think, for the Air Force over the last however long it is now, more than 10 years, significantly more than 10 years.
And that, that has driven a, I, I think a significant change in culture in the way that we approach, manage, process and categorise risks and the decisions that we make, driving everything down, the risk, risk to life down to a level that is as low as pr- reasonably practicable and [00:32:00] tolerable and that is absolutely right, and we've driven a culture into the service of one of identifying risks early and dealing with them to the best degree we can, and that's brilliant.
That doesn't take away from the fact though that we still have to make decisions on risk more broadly when it comes to the execution of operations, and whilst the duty holder construct provides a really good mechanism for us to do that formally, there are still some decisions that need to be made quickly that are about operation effectiveness, that are that are drive- driven by the need to secure mission success.
And so balance-- for me now, balancing mission success, force protection, and the strategic impact of the decisions that we make is a much more complicated picture than, than I think I was used to when I was looking at duty holding in its purest sense from a, from an air, from a air duty holding [00:33:00] perspective.
And so if I were to categorise what's changed over time, I think we've got a much clearer about-- view about who owns the risk, who's responsible for the risk, who's responsible for the decision. But there will always be that slightly gray space where there are a couple of decisions that, that you could make, both of which have got risk associated with them.
And you can't dodge, you can't dodge them both, so you've gotta make a decision, right? And inaction is a decision all of itself. So actually I've found it I've found it much-- I've found myself much more involved in making decisions about risk in this job than I have previously.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: What does dynamic risk management mean? Because it could mean two things: dynamic because it's urgent here and now, or dynamic because you didn't think about it beforehand.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: So I would categorise dynamic risk management about being able to make a decision on risk quickly because something's emerged, or to give people the [00:34:00] authority to make a decision on risk depending on the outcomes that they see.
And so if I give you an example, a non-- a slightly non-specific example. O-operations in the Middle East recently, we were asking people to do very different things that were outside of the bounds of what had been agreed beforehand by, between me and Air Officer Commanding One group in this particular case.
And in doing that, what we would, what we were saying to crews or to local commanders was, "Okay, here's the authority that we're giving you now. Here's the eventualities that might come. If this happens, then I want you to do this. If this happens, I want you to do that. If something else happens, you need to come back to me."
But giving them the ability to make those, to make some decisions that are based on the risk as it changed within the context of that particular mission. And that could be anything to do with weather through to force protection, through to threat, through to emerging situations.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So , - a greater degree of delegation of that auth-auth... it wouldn't be the authority, but delegation to make decisions.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: So a decision can be made in three seconds rather than three minutes- Or three hours.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: And empowering people not only to make decisions, but giving people a clear view of what success looks like, such that if something's different and they know what success looks like, and they can't come back to you for a decision at that point because time doesn't allow, or they don't have the communication network to do so.
They understand what it is that you intended to happen, and they will find the most appropriate means of doing that without exposing everybody to an undue, an unreasonable amount of risk.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Which is a cornerstone of how the British military operates, of everyone understanding what the mission is so that anyone can pick up the flag and go.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we've got to be prepared to do that because the f- the future operating environment is not going to be simple, and and we won't be able to have eyes on every single element of detail. We won't necessarily have assured communication. And so if we can't do that now and train people to do that, then we'll find ourselves in a difficult position in the future.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Okay. You mentioned the word future. Let's talk about future challenges. Yeah, as, as you see things. How long have you been in the seat now, AOC 11 Group?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Pretty much 10 and a half months.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Okay. So if it happens now, it's your fault.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Absolutely.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: What are the future challenges that you see from your operational insights? Where have you gotta sharpen the saw?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: There's a range of challenges from both my position in this role, but also as we look forward to future capabilities and our ability to be agile, integrated, and ready to be able to fly, fight, and win.
And they're not, they're not buzz phrases. They are really important foundations to, to how we think, and we-- they are the lens through which we look. So I think as, as we look for our ability to fight from the home base, our ability to execute [00:37:00] operations from the UK in support of NATO operations is gonna be a fundamental part of what we're doing in the future.
And that will change the way that we've configured and operated our bases for the first time in several decades, really. So the degree of war fighting mindset across the whole force, the level of force protections, the security culture, the infrastructure that we have, the resilience, the stockpiles the depth of capabilities will all become increasingly important because we're gonna be doing it from home plate.
And our ability to recover following a loss of service for whatever reason, be that kinetic or or otherwise will become a foundational part of our ability to operate. So we talked previously about agile combat employment when we last talked. That, that will still be a foundation of what we do.
Our ability to move and disperse forces and to operate from different locations is, will be fundamental. So not only will we need to be able to operate from our own base, we'll need to be a-able to [00:38:00] operate from others, and those bases will need to be able to receive platforms, execute operations, move them on, do something from somewhere else, a-and be ready and resilient to do that.
So that, that agile approach, that agility to move from one to the other will be important. Our ability to integrate with other f- other forces to deliver the effects will be important, and the resilience on the bases will be the foundation. So that's why that agile, integrated, and ready is so important.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: And there's some big training exercises coming up over the next 12 months. Do you wanna just touch on those?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Yeah, so for us there's two things. First of all, Agile Warrior this year was our first attempt to run the bases in the manner I've just described, and to test our ability to execute operations in that construct, and to work out where we needed to do a bit more work or we needed a bit more capability.
And it was brilliant. 23 bases across the Air Force, 700 and something lessons that we drew out. But d- so really useful exercise that, that taught us some strong lessons. And genuinely saw, I [00:39:00] saw at the seven bases I visited, a load of really enthusiastic people keen to get back to that sort of fighting from home posture and being resilient.
We're doing another one of those in the early part of next year, another sort of Agile Warrior in 2027, and that will lead into Steadfast Defender 27, which is a large scale NATO exercise against which the UK is contributing all of our forces. So air, maritime, land, cyber space will be doing elements of that exercise.
And actually, that exercise you could break down into a number of smaller exercises. So we'll, we will test our ability to deliver air power and support across the range of Air's activities through a number of those, a number of those exercises. And then of course, we've got the usual big ticket events like Red Flag at the start of the year and some of the other, some of the other training exercises like Cobra Warrior that will really sharpen our high-end war fighting skills that will allow us, to hold that level of resilience and readiness that we demand.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: And will the UK public be aware of this stuff that's going on?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: I think, yeah. Th- this is-- And again, this comes back to the information operations piece. Through, through the public affairs part of the business, through our media and comms, we'll absolutely be talking about talking about that activity.
We'll be talking about that activity nationally, and our ambition will be to talk about it locally and to engage through our RAF regional liaison officers and local networks to be really clear about what we're doing. I have a sense that the, the public has a desire to know a bit more about that.
And so wherever we can talk about something at the right level of classification, I think it's really important that we go out there and have those conversations because it should improve people's confidence in our ability to secure and defend the nation, which is ultimately why we're here.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: And we're not a quiet force, are we?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: No, we-- But there is the joy, right? There's the sound of freedom. It's it's a-- it's the best bit of the job, I think.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Okay. Finally, a message for your people in Eleven Group. What would you like-- If they were just in this room gathered around listening in, because they will be listening in, what's your message to them?
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Pretty well the message that I try and land with them every time I see them. Thank you. They are genuinely an amazing and energised bunch who really exceed my expectations at every turn. We-we're we're doing a, a lot of work in parallel to the delivery of operational output.
We're doing a lot of work at the moment to-- You know, we talked about the integrated air missile defence plan. We're looking at how we execute command and control. We're developing the plans for NATO. We're reviewing our security culture. We're doing some transformation work for the air intelligence branch.
And all of that is happening amidst everything else that's going on in the world. And we're delivering operational effect from the High North all the way through to the to the Middle East and beyond. And doing it with more often than not a smile on their face and a spring in their step.
Yeah, to Eleven Group, thank you. But to the broader Air Force, congratulations on an [00:42:00] incredible twenty twenty-six so far. Wha-- I think it's just amazing what the Royal Air Force has delivered this year and I think everybody in the Royal Air Force should be incredibly proud of what we do and what we achieve.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Air Vice Marshal Steve Kilvington, Air Officer Commanding Eleven Group, thank you for telling us what Eleven Group does. Thank you for being on Inside Air.
Air Vice-Marshal Steve Kilvington: Thanks for having me and thanks for what you do to get our message out there. It's greatly appreciated. It's good to be back again. Thanks.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: Thank you.
Corporal Victoria Andrews: This is Reheat. I'm Corporal Victoria Andrews
The Royal Air Force is witnessing a fundamental shift in air power with the development of collaborative combat aircraft designed to operate alongside crewed fast jets in future conflicts. Known as Storm Fighter, the RAF's Future Collaborative Combat Aircraft program will see highly capable un-crewed [00:43:00] aircraft working as part of an integrated force, supporting pilots by carrying sensors, weapons, and electronic warfare systems into some of the world's most contested battle spaces.
The concept is designed to increase combat mass, extend operational reach, and provide commanders with greater flexibility during missions. Working closely with crewed platforms, these aircraft could undertake high-risk tasks, gather intelligence, and help protect frontline assets. As technology continues to transform modern warfare, the program forms part of the RAF's vision to ensure it remains ready to fly, fight, and win in the decades ahead.
The Red Arrows are preparing to resume their journey home from North America after poor weather in northeast Canada delayed their Atlantic crossing. The revised timetable means a number of appearances have been canceled, as safety remains a [00:44:00] priority. But we can expect to see them undertaking performances in our skies again soon.
The RAF is proud to be the lead service for the 2026 Royal Edinburgh Military Tattoo. Throughout the tattoo, international bands will join those from the UK Armed Forces in a show of pinpoint precision, ceremony, and unity. Preparation and rehearsals are now complete, and our service people are ready to perform in the grounds of Edinburgh Castle.
And visual communicators from RAF Benson have captured extraordinary pictures of a Chinook set against the backdrop of the recent solar eclipse. As the moon obscured more of the sun, the silhouette of the heavy-lift helicopter became more striking, creating a dramatic scene. Check out RAF social channels to see the incredible imagery.
That's Reheat on Inside Air.
AS1 Ben Russel: I'm AS1 Ben Russell and this is Under the Hat, [00:45:00] where we get to know an aviator in less than a minute Name you're known by?
Sergeant Newton: I am Sergeant Newton.
AS1 Ben Russel: What's your profession?
Sergeant Newton: So I'm an air loadmaster with 99 Squadron on the C-17s at RAF Brize Norton.
AS1 Ben Russel: What's the best thing about your job?
Sergeant Newton: I travel all over the world and get paid doing it. It's pretty fantastic.
AS1 Ben Russel: Hardest part of your job?
Sergeant Newton: Traveling all around the world and getting paid for it and not gloating about it to everyone I see.
AS1 Ben Russel: Best location you've served?
Sergeant Newton: Oh I've been to absolutely everywhere. The States is a fantastic one. There's always different variety out there. We go to Canada quite a lot. That's beautiful. I've just come back from the Ascension Islands randomly. That was pretty awesome. Yeah all of the above really.
AS1 Ben Russel: What bit of luxury kit do you never deploy without?
Sergeant Newton: Ooh that's gotta be the cafetière. You need good coffee everywhere you go. It keeps you awake. Yeah, I'd say cafetière all the way.
AS1 Ben Russel: And what's your proudest moment in the RAF?
Sergeant Newton: All of it is the answer I want to give. Probably completing my phase 2 training. That was [00:46:00] pretty amazing. Standing up there and getting my getting my brevet, getting the flying badge was a very heartwarming moment for myself.
Squadron Leader Peter Lisney: That's all for this episode of Inside Air. Please give us a review and subscribe on your favorite podcast app and join us again soon
Narrator: You've been listening to Inside Air, a Behind the Wire view of the Royal Air Force, its people, technology, and operations. If you're serving in the RAF and have a story for us, please speak to your unit media and communications officer.
Inside Air is written
and produced for the Royal Air Force by RAF Media Reserves
